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Dane B

Climate Change - Fact, or biggest tax con ever?

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What are your thoughts on Climate Change? Is it real? Are our cities really suffering from high levels of CO2, or do our cities have the same amount of CO2 as in 1925, even though the population has increased by 20 million and there are millions more vehicles on the roads.?

The UK produces less than 2% of the worlds CO2. Does what we do in tackling climate change have any effect, especially when China, India, Russia, and the US are responsible for about 90% of CO2 emissions.?

Are the icecaps melting at record levels, or are scientists actually aware that for 20% of the earth's history, there has been no ice at all at the poles?

Is the UK actually warming up as climate change protagonists have us believe?  Are they aware that the UK's climate was warm enough for the Roman invaders to grow grapes on vines as far north as Hadrian's wall?

Are scientists, as some have claimed, actually manipulating their data to get the climate change results they want?

CO2 is earth's natural plant food. 

Your thought's please guys. Is climate change real, or the biggest tax con ever?

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I'm no scientist although if the vast majority buy into something then they're probably onto something.

The way I see it, if you do something and it turns out to be bollocks then no harm done.

If you do nothing and it turns out to be true then that's everyone fucked. 

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I cannot understand what benefit there is for scientists in manipulating CO2 figures or why they would go through years of scientific study just to throw it all away for no apparent reason. Additionally, pretty much every scientist out there agrees that man made climate change is a thing. If there was real doubt about this then there would be more dissenting voices. Scientists do not benefit from taxes being raised, indeed, they have to pay taxes too so that argument is a load of bollocks.

On the other hand, climate change deniers are usually the sort who don't believe in vaccines or that the world is round and tend to believe the fossil fuel companies and politicians who peddle that it is a myth... Because politicians and fossil fuel companies are entirely neutral and not looking at the short-term in this debate unlike those bastard scientists. 

Personally, I'll go with the experts and not those with a vested interest, as Charlie says, the risk of doing nothing could be catastrophic so why take that chance.

Edited by Mr Smith
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9 hours ago, Dane B said:

 

The UK produces less than 2% of the worlds CO2. Does what we do in tackling climate change have any effect, especially when China, India, Russia, and the US are responsible for about 90% of CO2 emissions.?

According to an expert I heard recently, what we do either as individuals or as the UK will have no noticeable effect due to the mammoth pollution caused by the USA, China, India etc.

And before anyone says anything, he was a "nice" expert who's campaigning to save the ice caps, not the sort funded by a fossil fuel company.

Believe me, it gives me no pleasure to say it, but you not taking the car to work or making a principled decision to holiday in the UK as opposed to flying somewhere will have no meaningful effect until the aforementioned countries get their acts together and drastically reduce their CO2 emissions.

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8 hours ago, H-Block said:

According to an expert I heard recently, what we do either as individuals or as the UK will have no noticeable effect due to the mammoth pollution caused by the USA, China, India etc.

And before anyone says anything, he was a "nice" expert who's campaigning to save the ice caps, not the sort funded by a fossil fuel company.

Believe me, it gives me no pleasure to say it, but you not taking the car to work or making a principled decision to holiday in the UK as opposed to flying somewhere will have no meaningful effect until the aforementioned countries get their acts together and drastically reduce their CO2 emissions.

True, but how can this country or us individuals criticise those countries if we can't sort out our mess in the first place?! Our f*&king laziness, peer pressure and commercialism is ruining this country, but being hypocrites (and that includes myself) can't be arsed to think carefully about the consequences of our actions. Did the Millennium's Y2K bug suddenly wipe all common-sense out because how in the f**k have we got to this place in time? Suddenly out goes small, affordable vehicles to be replaced by 4x4 tanks to take little ABCD Timmy to Pre-school, or call UBER DO BER DOO to get delivered our daily Fracolocochocofuckalatte or McD's. Are we that fricking lazy? What about having to change our wardrobe and style each season, but idiots wear designer jeans that have more holes than my memory! Shheeshh🙄!  Understandably we can't go back, but haven't learnt any lessons from the past say 2000 years? 

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1 hour ago, nemesiz said:

True, but how can this country or us individuals criticise those countries if we can't sort out our mess in the first place?! 

What mess, nemesiz?

Look at this chart. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions 

We're looking to reduce our use of fossil fuels by spending billions of pounds on blighting our coasts with wind turbines, yet the Chinese are building 400 new coal powered power stations in the next couple of years. As H-Block says, what we do as a nation has little or no impact world wide.

Are we being mis-informed? We are told that by 2040, all new cars in the UK will be electric, yet some studies suggest that although emissions at the point of use are zero, the manufacture of an electric car, the batteries, and the production of the electricity, actually creates more CO2 than a diesel car during the life span of the vehicle.

 

However, Volkswagen’s findings are in contrast to a recent study suggesting that including CO2 emissions in battery production and the power mix in the carbon footprint of electric cars, they are more harmful than diesel vehicles.

According to physics professor Christoph Buchal, electric cars increase CO2 emissions in Germany rather than reduce them. As soon as the CO2 emissions in the production of the batteries and the German electricity mix are taken into account, the CO2 emissions of battery electric vehicles are, in the best case, slightly higher than those of a diesel engine, and are otherwise much higher than published.

Lithium, cobalt and manganese for the batteries are recovered and processed with high-energy input. A battery for a Tesla Model 3, for example, pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tons of CO2. With a battery life of ten years and a mileage of 15,000 kilometres per year, that alone would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, according to the findings.

Add to this the CO2 emissions of the electricity and, in reality, the Tesla has emissions between 156 and 181 grams of CO2 per kilometre - significantly more than a comparable diesel Mercedes.

Is it this type of knee jerk reaction by ill informed, or possibly ignorant to the facts, politicians that makes certain individuals question whether it's all worth it.

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Here's the thing, when you ship almost all of your production to China, because it's cheap, often because of wages and often because they don't have the same environmental restrictions that we do, you're still responsible for the polution they're causing. 

If we collectively stop buying cheap shit that's made in China, it would probably have a much bigger impact that if we tightened things up a bit at home, especially when the latter will be done anyway. 

 

 

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You only have to look at satellite photos of the poles (particularly the Arctic) of now and 20/30 years ago to see how much impact we're having and how real it is.

It won't stop either, humans as a species are instinctively greedy, selfish and not particularly great at forward-planning. While there's money to be made the destruction of the planet's resources (both plant and animal) will never stop.

Edited by Savo

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12 hours ago, Dane B said:

Are we being mis-informed? We are told that by 2040, all new cars in the UK will be electric, yet some studies suggest that although emissions at the point of use are zero, the manufacture of an electric car, the batteries, and the production of the electricity, actually creates more CO2 than a diesel car during the life span of the vehicle.

 

 

I've been saying this all along! I've not had the privilege of any reports, but on a purely common sense level if all of a sudden all the cars in the World are going to be powered by electricity, the environmental savings you make on not using petrol are going to be at least matched by all the additional pollution you're going to have to make creating all that electricity! False economy!

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10 hours ago, H-Block said:

I've been saying this all along! I've not had the privilege of any reports, but on a purely common sense level if all of a sudden all the cars in the World are going to be powered by electricity, the environmental savings you make on not using petrol are going to be at least matched by all the additional pollution you're going to have to make creating all that electricity! False economy!

Surely that depends on how the electricity is generated? If it comes from renewables then surely it makes sense.

The thing I have never understood with environmentalism is the contempt for both fossil fuels and nuclear. Surely if you want to get rid of fossil fuels then nuclear is a very sensible alternative.

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46 minutes ago, Mr Smith said:

Surely that depends on how the electricity is generated? If it comes from renewables then surely it makes sense.

The thing I have never understood with environmentalism is the contempt for both fossil fuels and nuclear. Surely if you want to get rid of fossil fuels then nuclear is a very sensible alternative.

Tell that to the snowflakes who moan on about the use of fossil fuels, but then decide that the alternative isn't "friendly". Take fracking as an example. More or less dead in the water before it's even started, thanks to few tree huggers. The chance for us to be gas self sufficient gone thanks to a minority of loons.

It's the hypocrisy of these twats that get me. The other week I was watching the news and one of the leaders of Extinction Rebellion was being interviewed. He was insisting that we all turn vegan to reduce the environmental impact of all the cows farting. Then a video clip of some of the protesters was shown. No one picked up on the fact that they were wearing leather coats, Doc Marten boots, etc. It seemed like a case of do as we say, not as we do.

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1 hour ago, Mr Smith said:

Surely that depends on how the electricity is generated? If it comes from renewables then surely it makes sense.

There isn't enough renewable energy available if we all have to change our cars, as suggested by the govt, to electric.

To put this into context, the average daily electricity bill for homes in the UK is £2 per day. To fully charge a car at home will cost @ £8.50. I doubt that we'd have enough electricity, renewable or not, if 38 million vehicles were plugged in to charge overnight.

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1 hour ago, Dane B said:

There isn't enough renewable energy available if we all have to change our cars, as suggested by the govt, to electric.

To put this into context, the average daily electricity bill for homes in the UK is £2 per day. To fully charge a car at home will cost @ £8.50. I doubt that we'd have enough electricity, renewable or not, if 38 million vehicles were plugged in to charge overnight.

But that's not going to happen is it

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17 hours ago, Dane B said:

Tell that to the snowflakes who moan on about the use of fossil fuels, but then decide that the alternative isn't "friendly". Take fracking as an example. More or less dead in the water before it's even started, thanks to few tree huggers. The chance for us to be gas self sufficient gone thanks to a minority of loons.

Gas IS a fossil fuel. However it does have a far smaller carbon footprint than coal or oil so could certainly be part of the solution.

Edited by Daz555

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On 11/6/2019 at 9:41 AM, Dane B said:

What mess, nemesiz?

Our ideology sift towards pure commercialism and consumer choice has affected our carbon footprint. Whether experts agree or disagree with climate change, our attitude towards a throwaway society has left the environment in a despicable mess. Fly tipping become prevalent, the streets disgustingly dirty far worse with rubbish, dog mess sprawled all over the pavements, congested roads causing poor air quality reminiscent of the 1950's smog filled towns. Of course this isn't directly climate change, more an environmental impact but the production and use of finite materials for each product does. Unfortunately commercialism and social pressure has fueled and encouraged our lacklustre, blase attitude towards the environment and the impact commercialism consequently causes.   

Just think in the Fifties, Sixties  even Seventies consumer choice was limited, prices were high thus we conserved, re-cycled, repaired or fixed our clothes, electronics machinery and white goods. Old Clothing and Toys wasn't discarded or thrown away needlessly, instead handed down to younger siblings or given to Jumble Sales. Nowadays it's the complete opposite with a shift in materialism and peer pressure. Many people own wardrobe(s) full of clothes, shoes and toys that are used a few times then discarded or forgotten. All had to manufactured. 

This goes back to the original point and CC highlighted where are the products made? In the past, mainly Britain for clothing but now Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, or Vietnam. The carbon footprint to grow the non-synthetic material (i.e. Cotton), logistics, production and shipping of the final product. What about waste when manufacturing the item, or re-cycling the byproduct or end of life of the item? Much of it cannot be re-cycled. Unfortunately our attitude of 'not in my garden' or 'backyard', means the authorities ship the recyclable hazardous, dangerous or even normal daily waste to third world countries.      

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Maybe we should all vote Labour

As well as £250bn in investment over 10 years for a green transformation fund to invest in areas such as clean energy and home insulation, Labour also pledged £150bn over five years for what it billed as a new social transformation fund.

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9 hours ago, nemesiz said:

Our ideology sift towards pure commercialism and consumer choice has affected our carbon footprint. Whether experts agree or disagree with climate change, our attitude towards a throwaway society has left the environment in a despicable mess. Fly tipping become prevalent, the streets disgustingly dirty far worse with rubbish, dog mess sprawled all over the pavements, congested roads causing poor air quality reminiscent of the 1950's smog filled towns. Of course this isn't directly climate change, more an environmental impact but the production and use of finite materials for each product does. Unfortunately commercialism and social pressure has fueled and encouraged our lacklustre, blase attitude towards the environment and the impact commercialism consequently causes.   

Just think in the Fifties, Sixties  even Seventies consumer choice was limited, prices were high thus we conserved, re-cycled, repaired or fixed our clothes, electronics machinery and white goods. Old Clothing and Toys wasn't discarded or thrown away needlessly, instead handed down to younger siblings or given to Jumble Sales. Nowadays it's the complete opposite with a shift in materialism and peer pressure. Many people own wardrobe(s) full of clothes, shoes and toys that are used a few times then discarded or forgotten. All had to manufactured. 

This goes back to the original point and CC highlighted where are the products made? In the past, mainly Britain for clothing but now Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, or Vietnam. The carbon footprint to grow the non-synthetic material (i.e. Cotton), logistics, production and shipping of the final product. What about waste when manufacturing the item, or re-cycling the byproduct or end of life of the item? Much of it cannot be re-cycled. Unfortunately our attitude of 'not in my garden' or 'backyard', means the authorities ship the recyclable hazardous, dangerous or even normal daily waste to third world countries.      

 

Maybe our solution would be to have massive penalties for any imports that aren't made to our environmental standards (which we can set as high as we want)?

This would mean we had control over our whole environmental footprint. 

On top of that people wouldn't have an endless supply of cheap crap that they'll never need. 

Edited by Charlie Cheswick

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I find it fucking ironic that europe spent 400 years chopping down entire forests for grazing cattle, building cities.. towns and smoky factories.. plundering the planet for natural resources and now spend most of the time telling asia to wind their necks in. 

Edited by i.k.s
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2 hours ago, i.k.s said:

I find it fucking ironic that europe spent 400 years chopping down entire forests for grazing cattle, building cities.. towns and smoky factories.. plundering the planet for natural resources and now spend most of the time telling asia to wind their necks in. 

True, but at the time we didn't know the extent of the damage we were doing. Better to try and educate those countries as to the environmental impact and support greener ways to help their economies grow than allow them to make the same mistakes we did.

I agree with a lot of the points that we can do fuck to save the world in the UK without the USA, China and India. However, we lead the world with the industrial revolution and there might be economic advantages to leading the world in de-carbonisation. 

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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-20/uk-s-move-away-coal-means-they-re-burning-wood-us%3famp

love this. Draw power station in Yorkshire gets its biomass pellets from the states with a large portion of cut down trees.

they claim is its carbon neutral because whilst burning fuel releases carbon into the atmosphere trees absorb carbon so it’s okay(obviously except for the ones you cut down).

funny that this plants and trees absorb carbon observation doesn’t apply if you burn anything else that releases carbon.

im always a bit suspicious of anything in which cold, warmth, rain, sun, snow , ice is all proof of the same thing.

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On 11/9/2019 at 1:23 PM, leather said:

funny that this plants and trees absorb carbon observation doesn’t apply if you burn anything else that releases carbon.

 

Fossil fuels releases carbon that was part of our atmosphere millions of years ago. It is locked away and if it were not for human ingenuity would have never been released into the atmosphere today. CO2 from 60 million to 550 million years ago would be best left where it is and it seems finally that we are starting to wake up to that fact.

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