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Absolute bollocks to it, really.

 

Not much more to add.

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Quite agree Matt . Slows the game down much too much removing the spontaniety for the fans .. Plus , don't get me started on the new hand-ball regulations ...  Crock of SHIT ...

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I remember being told it would just be to sort out obvious things, not go through every fucking thing with a fine comb.  I watched three Premier Division games before deciding I wasn't bothering again this season.  Waste of time.  That new handball rule is shit too.

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11 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

I remember being told it would just be to sort out obvious things, not go through every fucking thing with a fine comb.  I watched three Premier Division games before deciding I wasn't bothering again this season.  Waste of time.  That new handball rule is shit too.

Agreed with the new handball rule, Chaz.

If the ball accidentally strikes the arm of a defender, no penalty. If it accidentally strikes the arm of a striker and it leads to a goal, no goal.

Who makes these rules?

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Does anyone actually want VAR?

The desire to bring it in seems to have been lead almost entirely by the media. I'd be interested to know what percentage of actual match attending supporters wanted it m1705.gif

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Well, quite possibly the first ever good use of VAR occured this weekend. I did enjoy the diving Hudson-Odoi getting his penalty swapped for a yellow card  :thumbsup_anim:

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On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:58 AM, Art Vandelay said:

Does anyone actually want VAR?

The desire to bring it in seems to have been lead almost entirely by the media. I'd be interested to know what percentage of actual match attending supporters wanted it m1705.gif

Yes, all the football supporters do want VAR's if the system was sensible like Rugby, Cricket and Tennis. If overused the process is detrimental to the pace and undermines the officials, but correctly used especially like in Cricket works in tandem to improve decisions. As IKS states if each team has only one appeal or VAR chance, which could be renewed if correct, will ensure only serious refereeing decisions or errors like hand-balls or blatant off-sides are referred. The system is still in it's infancy, although been around since the early 1990's but needs to be refined, and as cricket emphasizes there is still a degree of error and so common-sense and a degree of leeway is normally advised when each decision is made.

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On 9/13/2019 at 5:58 AM, Art Vandelay said:

Does anyone actually want VAR?

 

VAR was used 3 times in the Villa - Liverpool mach at the weekend. 2 of the 3 decisions went in Villa's favour, yet a reporter at the match said that the boos and jeers from the Villa fans each time VAR was used would have been on a par with a Birmingham City Premier league title.

Referee gives Mane a yellow for diving. VAR takes 3 minutes to review it, then decides the ref was right. It's this disruption to the game that the fans don't like. Our refs are under instructions not to use the pitchside monitors to review an incident, instead they must wait until some yolk in a studio makes the decision for them.

Of all the people I have discussed VAR with, I cannot recollect one person in favour of it. Three VAR reviews at 3 minutes per review equates to 10% of the match where fans are just sat there not knowing what's happening.

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I don't think you can say they all want it. For example, the hundreds chanting 'fuck VAR' don't seem keen.

I don't know anything about cricket or rugby, so I don't know it this is the case there, but something about football that rarely seems to be acknowledged is most decisions are actually quite arbitrary. 90% of the time there is no 'right' and 'wrong' decision - very little is black and white it's all just shades of grey. Two players come together, the ball brushes a hand, there's a tussle for the ball, someone falls over etc and the ref just calls it. One day it's a freekick to one side, another day it could go the other way or just just play on, and whether the ref makes a call or whether it's reviewed by a panel looking at endless multi-angle replays doesn't really make any difference.

At least early on in the season they were sticking to just ruling out perfectly good goals by coming up with some bullshit offside call they can pretend is magically always right. Now they've started stepping in to overrule refs' perfect good initial decisions - Arsenal's winner against Palace ruled out? Watford penalty against Chelsea? What the hell was that?

Personally I'm just hoping it proves so unpoular by the end of the season they'll abandon it altogether.

 

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Oh, we replied at the exact same time. That's er unsual or something  :unsure:

Edited by Art Vandelay

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46 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

Oh, we replied at the exact same time. That's er unsual or something  :unsure:

Great minds, eh Art.

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6 hours ago, Dane B said:

VAR was used 3 times in the Villa - Liverpool mach at the weekend. 2 of the 3 decisions went in Villa's favour, yet a reporter at the match said that the boos and jeers from the Villa fans each time VAR was used would have been on a par with a Birmingham City Premier league title.

Referee gives Mane a yellow for diving. VAR takes 3 minutes to review it, then decides the ref was right. It's this disruption to the game that the fans don't like. Our refs are under instructions not to use the pitchside monitors to review an incident, instead they must wait until some yolk in a studio makes the decision for them.

Of all the people I have discussed VAR with, I cannot recollect one person in favour of it. Three VAR reviews at 3 minutes per review equates to 10% of the match where fans are just sat there not knowing what's happening.

 

6 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

I don't think you can say they all want it. For example, the hundreds chanting 'fuck VAR' don't seem keen.

I don't know anything about cricket or rugby, so I don't know it this is the case there, but something about football that rarely seems to be acknowledged is most decisions are actually quite arbitrary. 90% of the time there is no 'right' and 'wrong' decision - very little is black and white it's all just shades of grey. Two players come together, the ball brushes a hand, there's a tussle for the ball, someone falls over etc and the ref just calls it. One day it's a freekick to one side, another day it could go the other way or just just play on, and whether the ref makes a call or whether it's reviewed by a panel looking at endless multi-angle replays doesn't really make any difference.

At least early on in the season they were sticking to just ruling out perfectly good goals by coming up with some bullshit offside call they can pretend is magically always right. Now they've started stepping in to overrule refs' perfect good initial decisions - Arsenal's winner against Palace ruled out? Watford penalty against Chelsea? What the hell was that?

Personally I'm just hoping it proves so unpoular by the end of the season they'll abandon it altogether.

 

Art understandably the system has a margin of error and is dependent on whom is interpreting the laws and rules. For Cricket the 3rd and 4th Officials are Umpires, thus have the knowledge to interpret the rules and regulations. They are backed up with experts who control and implement the technology. Of course there are limitations to the technology (i.e. catches) but usually this is factored into the final decision, sometimes adhering to the side of caution or accepting the limitations or 'Umpires call'.  The problem is that VAR is being overused, for lesser offenses which is slowing down or disrupting the flow of the game. The system should ONLY be used as a last resort, identifying blatant major fouls or infringements i.e. handballing the ball into the net, or when the referee believes the goal is from a clear off-side. When I said All I mean All supporters if there is little delay to the game, and delivers what was originally promised to prevent an injustice that ruins the game. Would you begrudge a temporary time out if the system works properly? It does with Cricket, Tennis, and even Rugby.

7 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

90% of the time there is no 'right' and 'wrong' decision - very little is black and white it's all just shades of grey.

Having officiated Football and Cricket matches 90% of the time there is a right and wrong when it comes to the majority of decisions. Thankfully stringent rules prevents players from manipulating or abusing the rules. This is the reason why the majority of the game flows as the players and officials understand the rule book. Of course as you've correctly identified that is the grey area where expertise, experience and interpretation of the rules is dependent on the officials and referees, but this impacts only a minority of decisions, and again the rules give guidelines to ensure impartiality and consistency.   

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6 hours ago, nemesiz said:

When I said All I mean All supporters if there is little delay to the game, and delivers what was originally promised to prevent an injustice that ruins the game. Would you begrudge a temporary time out if the system works properly?

I suppose if VAR was only used in the exact situations I wanted it and always had the exact outcome I wanted then I could live with it but that's never going to happen and even if it did I'd still rather do without it. It's not really about it being used 'properly', and everyone will have their own idea of what 'properly' means, it's the very concept I don't like.

I like football because it's dramatic, it's exciting, it's unpredictable. I don't watch football in order to enjoy the accurate enforcement of a load of rules and regulations. That moment when the ball hits the net is what it's all about, a split second of drama when everything changes, and I want to know that moment matters.

If a goal is then followed by a review that could rule it out, it doesn't really matter to me whether it's at the whim of some guy in a room somwhere taking five minutes, or a once a game request of the opposition manager and takes ten seconds, the best moment of the game has been ruined.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

I suppose if VAR was only used in the exact situations I wanted it and always had the exact outcome I wanted then I could live with it but that's never going to happen and even if it did I'd still rather do without it. It's not really about it being used 'properly', and everyone will have their own idea of what 'properly' means, it's the very concept I don't like.

I like football because it's dramatic, it's exciting, it's unpredictable. I don't watch football in order to enjoy the accurate enforcement of a load of rules and regulations. That moment when the ball hits the net is what it's all about, a split second of drama when everything changes, and I want to know that moment matters.

If a goal is then followed by a review that could rule it out, it doesn't really matter to me whether it's at the whim of some guy in a room somwhere taking five minutes, or a once a game request of the opposition manager and takes ten seconds, the best moment of the game has been ruined.

 

 

Art, I understand and concur with your distrust, frustration and misgivings about technology, being a traditionalist myself but how many supporters on this board have complained about abysmal refereeing? There is even a dedicated thread about it! If the technology can be refined, speeded up and like in cricket help prevent obvious 'Howlers' then the technology should be integrated. If it can't, then fine immediately scrap VAR's until the technology matures.

 

6 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

I like football because it's dramatic, it's exciting, it's unpredictable. I don't watch football in order to enjoy the accurate enforcement of a load of rules and regulations. That moment when the ball hits the net is what it's all about, a split second of drama when everything changes, and I want to know that moment matters. 

 

 

I don't watch European, Premiership or International football nowadays because the majority of teams have adopted the continental style of football. It is tedious watching one touch passing football without any physical contact. Matches feels artificial, and sterile. Yes adherence to rules does play a factor in the reason for tedious nature of football today, but it's the rule makers, professional footballers, coaching, and major clubs that are at fault. Football is now a business with the players as assets.     

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2 hours ago, nemesiz said:

I don't watch European, Premiership or International football nowadays because the majority of teams have adopted the continental style of football. It is tedious watching one touch passing football without any physical contact. Matches feels artificial, and sterile. Yes adherence to rules does play a factor in the reason for tedious nature of football today, but it's the rule makers, professional footballers, coaching, and major clubs that are at fault. Football is now a business with the players as assets.     

I'll agree with that Nemesiz. I have fallen out with the modern game. I liken the continental style of football to a game of animated chess. Worse than that though is players rolling about in "agony", trying to get a fellow professional sent off for the slightest touch. If VAR is to be used, then the technology should be used to red card divers, and fine the player and club for simulation. Diving in the area should be a red card offence, just as a defender making a deliberate handball to prevent a goal is a red card.

The problem with this though is that we'd hardly see any football. We'd spend most of the 90 minutes waiting on VAR.

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I'd give the cricket method a try. Give each team 3 reviews, or 2 per half, and say any player or manager can use them for any decision they want - penalty, offside or even a throw in if they want. If the decision is overturned then they get to retain the review, if it's proved false they lose the review. You don't use it for anything else unless asked.

This way it gives power back to the referee's. When the players all start moaning about a decision and surrounding the ref, all he has to do is tell them to review it if they feel that strongly. Just think about all the times a linesman is yelled at by some twat of a player when it's obvious he's in the wrong. All the times that a prick of a manager yells at a fourth official for a free kick he wants when it was nowhere near. That all starts to go away when they actually have a chance to review the decision and are made to look an idiot when they frivolously lose the review.

Just a thought anyway, don't know how practical it would be in a game situation, but VAR as it is right now is causing more issues than it's resolving.

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14 hours ago, Random Task said:

I'd give the cricket method a try. Give each team 3 reviews, or 2 per half, and say any player or manager can use them for any decision they want - penalty, offside or even a throw in if they want. If the decision is overturned then they get to retain the review, if it's proved false they lose the review.

So 2 reviews each per half so eight in total, let's say half are upheld, so that's 15 over the whole match. Let's say 2-3 minutes each review, so that's close to 40 minutes of each match spent just sat there waiting for review updates. And that's on average, a lot of successful reviews and a couple of partuculary time consuming ones and it could be over an hour :axehead: 

No offense RT but I think that's the worst idea I've ever heard. They'll probably bring it in next season......

Edited by Art Vandelay

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Agree about the diving but they won't use VAR to try and stop it as there just isn't the will to do anything about diving. If there was they'd have started giving retrospective bans for the divers years ago but nothing ever happened. Even when they brought that automatic ban for 'deceiving the referee' last season there were only about four given all year - they should have banged out a dozen in the first weekend.

Diving has been allowed to become so ingrained in the culture of English football now I don't think most of them even consider it diving - you feel touch, or even think there might be a touch, and you go down. At worst someone might say you "went down a bit too easily". This is now the norm and everyone in football, with the possible exception of Sean Dyche, has just accepted it.

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7 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

So 2 reviews each per half so eight in total, let's say half are upheld, so that's 15 over the whole match. Let's say 2-3 minutes each review, so that's close to 40 minutes of each match spent just sat there waiting for review updates. And that's on average, a lot of successful reviews and a couple of partuculary time consuming ones and it could be over an hour :axehead: 

No offense RT but I think that's the worst idea I've ever heard. They'll probably bring it in next season......

Also you'd get strategic uses of it. So if you're under the cosh all your manager has to do is review a decision and you've got 3 minutes to regroup and kill the opposition momentum. 

Similarly if you're 1 goal up and it's the last 5 mins or so you'd just use the review to waste time. Just like they do now with subs and feigning injury as we all know the full amount if time stopped is never added back on. In fact if it's done in injury time it's as if the ref has forgotten about it sometimes and just blows on the same time anyway. 

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Get rid of on pitch officials making decisions altogether then. Just have 3 blokes in a studio telling this meathead in black uniform connected up by an earpiece with a whistle to stop the game as soon as big brother tells him to. Meathead then instructs what big brother decided.  

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 7:16 AM, Savo said:

Also you'd get strategic uses of it. So if you're under the cosh all your manager has to do is review a decision and you've got 3 minutes to regroup and kill the opposition momentum. 

Similarly if you're 1 goal up and it's the last 5 mins or so you'd just use the review to waste time. Just like they do now with subs and feigning injury as we all know the full amount if time stopped is never added back on. In fact if it's done in injury time it's as if the ref has forgotten about it sometimes and just blows on the same time anyway. 

Honestly hoping nobody would talk about the Jurgen Klinsmann of VARS - Strategic usage. Undoubtedly technology, and officialdom has it's key to play in improving the overall decision making, but there is a caveat - manipulation of the system. This has started to rear it's ugly head in Cricket. Like Substitutions a manager could utilise VARS to slow down or change the momentum of a game. Whilst it's negligible the outcome could change substitutions at the end of normal time, it is inevitable a manager would use this tool for his own means.

When I originally replied I had this in mind and was thinking of ways to stop the manipulation of the technology. This included a panel to oversee and prevent the exploitation and continual usage to waste time or attempt to adjust the impetus of the game. Unfortunately then we're getting into the murky waters again of over complicating and officiating the sport, but then as Art said we're in a grey area. So a no-go straight off.  

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Sheff Utd manager has stepped forward and said that VAR is ruining the game after Seff Utd had a goal ruled out for a toe being marginally off side. 4 minutes to review it.

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28 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

Can anyone remember it wasn't going to interfere unless the evidence was clear cut?  Right?

Time to fuck it off.  I'm pretty sure nobody in existence still thinks it's a good idea.

The problem is that some of the decisions are so marginal Chaz.  4 minutes, with multiple magnified images from all angles, to decide that a toe was marginally offside. Surely common sense should prevail, and the decision that no meaningful advantage could be gained from such a marginal offside should be made.

You are right mate, time to fuck it off. VAR is killing itself.                                                                                  

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