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How people vote Labour is beyond me. They block the Brexit deals that BJ is at least trying to get over the line with no suggestions of their own, they are too scared to hold a general election and no one is quite clear what their stance on Brexit is anyway. They are just fucking the country for the sake of it as they have no plans of their own. I can’t stand the Lib Dem’s but at least they have a clear opinion on Brexit 

Still ol Corby promised an election if the deadline is extended so let see But I reckon he will just shit his pants as he knows he will get destroyed 

Edited by E R

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Let’s have an election. Either we get a Labour government or Labour lose and it’s the end of Corbyn. Either are fine by me 👍

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To lose an election to this lot you would have to be spectacularly bad, I forget my point...

It could be an interesting election, Tories will vote Tory, they always turn out, while I imagine other voters either won't bother or will scatter their votes enough to ensure they all get battered.  

I can't think of a good reason to vote for any of them other than disliking the others more. Mind, where I live the Tories get twice the votes as anyone else so it's a waste of time voting anyway.

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2 hours ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

Mind, where I live the Tories get twice the votes as anyone else so it's a waste of time voting anyway.

 

Similar to me, except where I live the Tories get three times as many votes as the next party. My usual vote for the Liberal Democrats or Labour is nothing but a token gesture under first past the post. I'll miss the European elections if for no other reason I actually have half a chance of voting somebody into office - the beauty of proportional representation!

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14 hours ago, E R said:

How people vote Labour is beyond me. They block the Brexit deals that BJ is at least trying to get over the line with no suggestions of their own, they are too scared to hold a general election and no one is quite clear what their stance on Brexit is anyway. They are just fucking the country for the sake of it as they have no plans of their own. I can’t stand the Lib Dem’s but at least they have a clear opinion on Brexit 

Still ol Corby promised an election if the deadline is extended so let see But I reckon he will just shit his pants as he knows he will get destroyed 

The problem is that, while Labour are utter shit, the Tories have pretty much fucked up Brexit on their own. It is a sad state for the country that we have one of the worst governments and oppositions ever. Both have proven they don't deserve power, although fair play to Boris for getting a deal that both Parliament and the EU can agree to.

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16 hours ago, E R said:

How people vote Labour is beyond me. They block the Brexit deals that BJ is at least trying to get over the line 

A deal worse than May's.

Corbyn is a twat that clearly smells of piss. Dump him and get Kier Starmer in - they may then have a chance.

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Johnson's deal is a car crash. Only someone who values their seat (or has some other motive driven by financial gain) over the welfare of the nation would vote for it.

Corbyn is a monumental bellend though. He thinks he can win an election but he's deluded.

We are of course in this Brexit deadlock because the Tories decided to hold an election in 2017. It was the will of the people that the Tory party would not be able to form a majority in Government. Funny that the Tories want to let the people speak again in an election, but unwilling to let them speak again on Brexit.....

Edited by Daz555

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On 10/19/2019 at 8:39 AM, H-Block said:

I'd prefer to remain in the EU, but I could have lived with May's deal. It seemed to be a middle road for a divided country, giving both remainers and leavers their headline campaign promises - tariff free trade and alignment of employment rights for the remainers, control of immigration and making our own laws for the leavers.

Johnson's deal is  different prospect entirely. First of all, it doesn't actually deliver tariff free trade with the EU, just an aspiration to spend the next year negotiating towards one. In that respect, it's not really a "deal" at all. Worst case, we could still end up with no trade deal in a year's time. However, what really concerns me about the Johnson deal is the lack of commitment to align employment rights to those in the EU. Given this was in May's deal, you have to wonder why Johnson chose to remove it. A Tory government with no EU directing its employment laws and no legal commitment to mirror EU employment laws could cause misery for many working people. We'll gradually become a low rights, low pay, work until you drop economy. That probably appeals if you're the employer, if like me, you're the employee, that could see a significant reduction in the quality of your life and your wellbeing. For these reasons I hope Johnson's deal fails today.

Re: Employment laws. If there is a majority in Parliament in favour of changing employment rights, then why shouldn't a party be able to change them?

Why do we need the EU as a 'safety net', surely if the UK is going to be such a shit hole under the Tories as you describe, then they will be voted out and Labour can set them to whatever levels they see adequate (as would be their right) 

I find this a red herring anyway. In most cases the UK exceeds EU standards anyway. Ask Greek workers about their precious rights being thrown away by the EU... 

 

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MPs have rejected everything that has been put in front of them, which includes leaving with no deal, leaving with Theresa May’s soft brexit deal, a second referendum, customs union, EEA membership, EFTA membership, general election… It is like a bad dream.

A general election is the right course of action. It may be possible that the same purgatory/hung parliament awaits us but I think it’s unlikely, as realistically it will only take 10 seats to change hands in either direction to change the arithmetic in parliament.

To put it into context, there are about 45 MPs who have switched parties or become independent since 2017, in addition there are over 45 MPs who want to step down at the end of the parliament. The potential for change is great. 

It is time to reset. I certainly don’t think the Tories are guaranteed to have a net gain in seats either. They are very vulnerable to the Lib Dems and the SNP.

Also, a few questions for those who want a second referendum;
- If Leave won a second referendum, would you accept the result?

- If it was 52/48 in favour of Remain, would you consider it finished, or would we need a best of three?

- If Remain won a second referendum, then I assume you would see it as only fair for the UK to discuss its future EU membership in terms of ‘Hard Remain’ and ‘Soft Remain’?

- Would you also support a second Scottish referendum? If not, why not? 

Edited by Daz

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Protecting workers' rights is important seeing as our unions have been crushed.

The referendum was poorly thought through from start to finish, especially as literally everyting spouted in the run up to it was complete horse shit.  It seems perfectly reasonable that you'd get a vote on the final thing that you're getting.  I think leave would win again and that would be that. 

I'd say the Scots will leave at the next opportunity but it'd probably be a complete disaster for them.  Like a second Brexit to the one they're already having seeing as they do more than half of their trade with us.  But if they want to do it that's up to them. 

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8 hours ago, Ben said:

A deal worse than May's.

Corbyn is a twat that clearly smells of piss. Dump him and get Kier Starmer in - they may then have a chance.

Not sure Starmer’s the answer. In three years he hasn’t bothered to understand what a customs union is and what it isn’t, beyond seeing it has the word customs in it. They’re also going to have to find someone who understands the critical mass of voters lies outside of Islington. I’ve no idea who that person is.

that said, all the parties are riddled with halfwits.

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3 hours ago, Daz said:

Also, a few questions for those who want a second referendum;

1) If Leave won a second referendum, would you accept the result?

2)  If it was 52/48 in favour of Remain, would you consider it finished, or would we need a best of three?

3) If Remain won a second referendum, then I assume you would see it as only fair for the UK to discuss its future EU membership in terms of ‘Hard Remain’ and ‘Soft Remain’?

4) Would you also support a second Scottish referendum? If not, why not? 

1) Yes, because now we know what a deal looks like, it would be an informed decision - unlike the first referendum.

2) Yes, because likewise, it would be an informed decision. The margin wasn't the issue to me, the obvious lack of clarity about what was being voted for was.

3) No, because a nation that stays in the EU agrees to accept all EU laws unequivocally - hence there is no such thing as a hard or soft remain.

4) If the polling evidence is the majority of Scots want independence, much as the evidence is the majority of UK people now want to remain in the EU, then yes, I would support a second Scottish referendum.

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53 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

Good article, Charlie, have to say I couldn't agree more with it. I'm sure those of us who've worked for medium to large sized companies have noticed this trend for a while - senior managers or consultants who come in not really knowing what they're doing but seem genuine enough and promise the Earth, turn things upside down by "restructuring" then fuck off to the next gig before the negative impact of their work starts to be felt. I gather some make a very nice career out of it.

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On 10/26/2019 at 10:02 PM, Charlie Cheswick said:

Good piece. We’re riddled with this on all sides of the political divide and the civil service. Although it’s not writing think mediocrity goes with this too. Bluffing is perfect for the chancers we have in the system. It’s not just politicians and civil service mandarins, but other institutions too such that we rely on.

Agree with H Block on his suggestion exists in consultants and business. I’ve begun to think most consultants don’t go into businesses to fix the problems correctly but have to come up with something high impact for their next gig. 

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On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 9:50 PM, H-Block said:

1) Yes, because now we know what a deal looks like, it would be an informed decision - unlike the first referendum.

2) Yes, because likewise, it would be an informed decision. The margin wasn't the issue to me, the obvious lack of clarity about what was being voted for was.

3) No, because a nation that stays in the EU agrees to accept all EU laws unequivocally - hence there is no such thing as a hard or soft remain.

4) If the polling evidence is the majority of Scots want independence, much as the evidence is the majority of UK people now want to remain in the EU, then yes, I would support a second Scottish referendum.

Why wasn't the first referendum an informed decision? Are you implying that the remain voters were told inaccurate, untrustworthy information? Who would have thought 😅 . Joking aside yes the supporters of a second referendum do have credence to their argument that the electorate were and continue to be misinformed about the statistics and evidence for leaving or staying in the EU. Although probably it's the 'LEAVE' campaigners that have most grievance as the vast majority of statistical errors, inaccurate predictions, and misinformation were pushed by the prior government, major independent economic bodies i.e. BOE and IMF, and the currently 'REMAIN' dominant Parliament and Broadcasters. Unfortunately the last three years have emphasized that it would be impossible to run an impartial, balanced, well informed referendum especially with the setup of the media!

The second referendum lobbyists argue is that the first referendum campaign was run and used inaccurate information to support the 'Leave' argument which as stated previously is proven correct but of course the reason for this cancellation is wholly down to factual inaccuracies nothing to do with 'Remainers' losing the vote. NO Never 😉. In truth you're right but there is a major weakness when it comes to a 'Final' second referendum, rules and regulation don't stay still nor are static as I've said in an argument prior, the European Union are moving towards a centralised, Federalistic Europe that is incompatible with the UK ideology, laws and regulations. So whether this country had the initial referendum, a second or even a confirmatory vote the British population and parliament would be facing a new 'IN' or 'OUT' decision in the next few years.            

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19 minutes ago, nemesiz said:

Why wasn't the first referendum an informed decision? Are you implying that the remain voters were told inaccurate, untrustworthy information? Who would have thought 😅 . Joking aside yes the supporters of a second referendum do have credence to their argument that the electorate were and continue to be misinformed about the statistics and evidence for leaving or staying in the EU. Although probably it's the 'LEAVE' campaigners that have most grievance as the vast majority of statistical errors, inaccurate predictions, and misinformation were pushed by the prior government, major independent economic bodies i.e. BOE and IMF, and the currently 'REMAIN' dominant Parliament and Broadcasters. Unfortunately the last three years have emphasized that it would be impossible to run an impartial, balanced, well informed referendum especially with the setup of the media!

The second referendum lobbyists argue is that the first referendum campaign was run and used inaccurate information to support the 'Leave' argument which as stated previously is proven correct but of course the reason for this cancellation is wholly down to factual inaccuracies nothing to do with 'Remainers' losing the vote. NO Never 😉. In truth you're right but there is a major weakness when it comes to a 'Final' second referendum, rules and regulation don't stay still nor are static as I've said in an argument prior, the European Union are moving towards a centralised, Federalistic Europe that is incompatible with the UK ideology, laws and regulations. So whether this country had the initial referendum, a second or even a confirmatory vote the British population and parliament would be facing a new 'IN' or 'OUT' decision in the next few years.            

That's what I've complained about since the whole thing began.  When half of your population don't even know the difference between 'their, they're and there', how on Earth are they supposed to make a complex decision on what is best for the future of the country, especially when the only information being fed to them is complete horse shit? 

I'm personally still not convinced that leaving the EU will limit the amount of Pakistanis coming in. 

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On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 5:39 PM, Daz said:

A Tory government with no EU directing its employment laws and no legal commitment to mirror EU employment laws could cause misery for many working people. We'll gradually become a low rights, low pay, work until you drop economy. That probably appeals if you're the employer, if like me, you're the employee, that could see a significant reduction in the quality of your life and your wellbeing. For these reasons I hope Johnson's deal fails today.

This country has one of the highest standards of employment rights, laws and regulations in the EU. Unfortunately employers are manipulating, ignoring or finding loop-holes within current legislation to create a two tier system. Worryingly the fail-safe systems, procedures or regulatory bodies that police or protect the employees are simply ineffective or not doing their job. The concern though is that there is a direct correlation between the EU Freedom of Movement, and exploitation of workers as employers have access to 'limitless' pool of young, cheap, efficient reliable low skilled workers from the ex-Soviet Bloc Countries. Just think would Amazon, Sports Direct or even Couriers treat their employees the same if that excess supply didn't exist?            

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46 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

That's what I've complained about since the whole thing began.  When half of your population don't even know the difference between 'their, they're and there', how on Earth are they supposed to make a complex decision on what is best for the future of the country, especially when the only information being fed to them is complete horse shit? 

I'm personally still not convinced that leaving the EU will limit the amount of Pakistanis coming in. 

'Your', do you mean 'US' unintellectual 'leave' Neanderthals*? UGG UGG UGG, (scratch head, bang club on the ground) UGG? There definitely been an perceived inference that the leave campaigners are racist, sexist, biased, bigoted, unintellectual, immature, fascists but I couldn't possibly fathom where this accusation would come? 'Cough' 'Cough' liberalists, politicians, intellectuals, media and Independent Readers.         

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1 hour ago, nemesiz said:

'Your', do you mean 'US' unintellectual 'leave' Neanderthals*? UGG UGG UGG, (scratch head, bang club on the ground) UGG? There definitely been an perceived inference that the leave campaigners are racist, sexist, biased, bigoted, unintellectual, immature, fascists but I couldn't possibly fathom where this accusation would come? 'Cough' 'Cough' liberalists, politicians, intellectuals, media and Independent Readers.         

 

This is probably because leavers often say things like 'Brexit means Brexit', 'we want our country back', 'traitors', pick your own nonsensical jibberish which is borne from whatever propaganda they were fed this week...

Of course there is an alternative to right wing Brexit that will be used to strip away our rights, of which as you've already mentioned already aren't being correctly regulated so we can only guess at how bad things will get, but that isn't going to happen because we've got a collection of fuckwits occupying the opposition. 

 

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So much for Boris’ guarantee that we leave on the 31st October. It’s absolutely staggering that anyone believes a word that he says. Yet they continue to do so. 

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14 hours ago, nemesiz said:

'Your', do you mean 'US' unintellectual 'leave' Neanderthals*? UGG UGG UGG, (scratch head, bang club on the ground) UGG? There definitely been an perceived inference that the leave campaigners are racist, sexist, biased, bigoted, unintellectual, immature, fascists but I couldn't possibly fathom where this accusation would come? 'Cough' 'Cough' liberalists, politicians, intellectuals, media and Independent Readers.         

I like how you criticise over-generalisations and then make an over-generalised statement (presumably intentionally). There were plenty of excellent reasons to leave the EU, however, within the group of people who voted leave were the sorts who got offended by Polish delis and having decent, affordable and available plumbers. It's like with Donald Trump; not all Trump supporters are racist, but all the racists support Trump.

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How come Boris keeps asking parliament to vote for the same thing over and over again because he doesn't like the result?

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Anyone care to predict the election result?

The way I see it, this is "general election" is actually a referendum in all but name. Only instead of two choices, voters essentially have four:

 

1) Leave with No Deal (Brexit Party)

2) Leave with Boris' "deal" (Conservative Party)

3) Remain (Liberal Democrats)

4) Whatever the fuck Labour's position is on 12th December (jokes aside, I think they want a second referendum. Although I'm not really sure)

 

Polling information suggests anything between a 5% to 11% lead in favour of remaining over leaving.  However, the danger for the remain position appears to be that their vote will likely be divided between the Liberal Democrats and Labour. Under first past the post we could up with another undemocratic mess where the majority of people vote for one of the remain parties but the Conservatives get more MPs into Parliament and we end up leaving the EU against the wishes of the majority of voters.

 

Heard a Labour politician on the radio earlier saying how he was looking forward to campaigning on issues like the NHS and education and that when people heard what they had to say on these issues over the Conservatives it would tilt the balance in Labour's favour. In any other election I might agree with him but make no mistake this is the BREXIT election and any party that doesn't campaign on that issue, an issue who's impact will be felt for decades and generations from now, and doesn't clearly set out its position could render itself irrelevant to the electorate.

 

 

Edited by H-Block

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Ideal result would be a Conservative and Brexit party coalition 👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

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