Jump to content
the_saurus

The politics thread

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Dane B said:

It passed.

They're just voting on half of the deal now. 😂😂😂

You couldn't make this up. We really must be the laughing stock of world politics.

It’s coming to something when that shitshow in Brussels looks more switched on that our lot do. In some ways it’s a good thing, because there’s no pretending now that our politics is fucked up by self interested halfwits. People who once didn’t give a shit are now paying attention to them and the MPs don’t like it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, leather said:

It’s coming to something when that shitshow in Brussels looks more switched on that our lot do. In some ways it’s a good thing, because there’s no pretending now that our politics is fucked up by self interested halfwits. People who once didn’t give a shit are now paying attention to them and the MPs don’t like it.

👍

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

May has lost a third vote on her withdrawal agreement.

Surprise, surprise, 234 Labour MP's vote against it, only 5 for.

Labour want a General Election out of this, I don't care what Lviv says. If so, Corbyn is a cunt, putting the country's future at risk to try and force through a General Election, which the cunt will still lose, even though the Tories are in turmoil.

Corbyn: 

"There has to be an alternative found. And if the prime minister can't accept that then she must go, not at an indeterminate date in the future but now. So that we can decide the future of this country through a general election."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Dane B said:

May has lost a third vote on her withdrawal agreement.

Surprise, surprise, 234 Labour MP's vote against it, only 5 for.

Labour want a General Election out of this, I don't care what Lviv says. If so, Corbyn is a cunt, putting the country's future at risk to try and force through a General Election, which the cunt will still lose, even though the Tories are in turmoil.

Corbyn: 

"There has to be an alternative found. And if the prime minister can't accept that then she must go, not at an indeterminate date in the future but now. So that we can decide the future of this country through a general election."

Would a GE be such a bad thing? If the appetite was still for us to leave then surely more leave MP’s would be returned to the house and would vote for the withdrawal agreement? It won’t pass as it stands.

 

What I can’t get my head around is arch brexiteers saying how the shit the deal is but simultaneously having a go at MP’s for not voting it through. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dane B said:

May has lost a third vote on her withdrawal agreement.

Surprise, surprise, 234 Labour MP's vote against it, only 5 for.

Labour want a General Election out of this, I don't care what Lviv says. If so, Corbyn is a cunt, putting the country's future at risk to try and force through a General Election, which the cunt will still lose, even though the Tories are in turmoil.

Corbyn: 

"There has to be an alternative found. And if the prime minister can't accept that then she must go, not at an indeterminate date in the future but now. So that we can decide the future of this country through a general election."

 

Not that I want to defend them as Labour haven't been great in this either, but they mostly voted with every alternative on Wednesday, including the Tory proposed ideas, it was the Tories that block voted them down.  I put a link up after on how the parties voted.  In short, generally much more workable and better ideas were put on the table and the silly bastards in power vetoed them all.  

Edited by Charlie Cheswick
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And so it goes on.

May now looking at a way of bringing her deal to a 4th vote.

Britain had better start bracing itself for a no deal exit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And on the subject of a no deal exit, can someone explain why a no deal would be such a disaster? And keep to facts, and not assumptions.

I know that a no deal exit is what a lot of 'Leavers' wanted in the first place. Cut all ties with the EU. Afterall, most would assume that's what leaving the EU entailed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dane B said:

And on the subject of a no deal exit, can someone explain why a no deal would be such a disaster? And keep to facts, and not assumptions.

I know that a no deal exit is what a lot of 'Leavers' wanted in the first place. Cut all ties with the EU. Afterall, most would assume that's what leaving the EU entailed.

We would take an economic hit as a result of Brexit. We would need to pay tariffs on certain goods as well as quantitative restrictions being able to come back into force with the bloc that accounts for about 50% of our trade. Our infrastructure is not designed to handle what is there at the moment without the necessity of customs checks at the boarders. There would be a customs border on the island of Ireland. The Union risks destabilising as the populism of Brexit fuels the populism of Scottish Nationalism. Legally, we are uncoupling from 40+ years of legal precedent. Certain rights and freedoms that stem from the EU no longer have legal protection. Our Parliament become Sovereign and Acts of Parliament absolute, as our Supreme Court has no legal right to overturn these unless they contradict EU law. Technically, everybody from the EU and Brits in the EU are there illegally, which is problematic for industries like the NHS, hospitality, universities and even football that rely upon foreign workers. This all creates business uncertainty for an economy that is doing relatively well. Tariffs will be passed onto the consumer, so prices will rise and inflation would follow. This is what a no deal is. Anything negating the above will require some form of deal between the EU and UK and, therefore, would not be a pure "No Deal" scenario and instead be some form of barebones deal that tries to mitigate the problems from the above.

Assumptions would be as to how badly the above effects day-to-day life.

Edited by Mr Smith
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there’s a general election and it doesn’t go the way I want then I demand a second vote because some of the winners promises are bound to not come to fruition and then I’ll look down my nose at those who voted for the winners and act all superior. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, nottmred said:

Would a GE be such a bad thing? If the appetite was still for us to leave then surely more leave MP’s would be returned to the house and would vote for the withdrawal agreement? It won’t pass as it stands.

 

What I can’t get my head around is arch brexiteers saying how the shit the deal is but simultaneously having a go at MP’s for not voting it through. 

I don't even know or care what the deal is. Arch Brexiteers voted to leave. Out. No deal. What part of that are you struggling with? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/26/2019 at 7:03 PM, Charlie Cheswick said:

 

It isn't for me to prove, you made a claim based on a load of bollocks cause you're so Nationalistic that your brain doesn't function straight.

 

Eh, you made the claim that the womans blog which listed companies that had moved from the uk with a sub off the eu was bollocks...I'm telling you it happened. i.e, not bollocks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, i.k.s said:

I don't even know or care what the deal is. Arch Brexiteers voted to leave. Out. No deal. What part of that are you struggling with? 

Many have flipped over to May's awful deal now though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

We would take an economic hit as a result of Brexit. We would need to pay tariffs on certain goods as well as quantitative restrictions being able to come back into force with the bloc that accounts for about 50% of our trade.

So we import over 50% of our goods from the EU. Are you suggesting that desperate countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Eastern bloc states, would stand by and have those exports restricted? They couldn't afford not to trade with us. Also, there are plenty of other countries worldwide, outside of the EU, that we would be open to trade with. Trade doesn't begin and end with the EU. We've become far too blinkered since our membership of the EU.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

 Technically, everybody from the EU and Brits in the EU are there illegally, which is problematic for industries like the NHS, hospitality, universities and even football that rely upon foreign workers.

Doesn't the law allow you to apply for British Citizenship if you have lived here for 3 years? Surely that puts the ball in our court. Lived here for 3 years and been employed for that time, you can stay. Lived here for years and sponged off the welfare system or have a criminal record, you can fuck off back to where you came from.

Seeing as the mass immigration started under Blair's govt, I'd suggest that a majority of immigrants have been here for the required time to apply for Citizenship.

Surely I'm missing something, as it seems quite simple to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Dane B said:

So we import over 50% of our goods from the EU. Are you suggesting that desperate countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Eastern bloc states, would stand by and have those exports restricted? They couldn't afford not to trade with us. Also, there are plenty of other countries worldwide, outside of the EU, that we would be open to trade with. Trade doesn't begin and end with the EU. We've become far too blinkered since our membership of the EU.

I am not suggesting that those countries would not want to trade with us (not that they can arrange their own deals as members of the EU), however, in order to trade with those states we need some form of trade deal. I agree entirely with the last point and there is an entire world out there to trade with, but since only 9 of the 40 trade deals we have as an EU member have been replicated we will be at a disadvantage. The immediate effect of leaving the EU with no deal is that we have no deals and means that we are a third-country and subject to trade tariffs.

10 minutes ago, Dane B said:

Doesn't the law allow you to apply for British Citizenship if you have lived here for 3 years? Surely that puts the ball in our court. Lived here for 3 years and been employed for that time, you can stay. Lived here for years and sponged off the welfare system or have a criminal record, you can fuck off back to where you came from.

Seeing as the mass immigration started under Blair's govt, I'd suggest that a majority of immigrants have been here for the required time to apply for Citizenship.

Surely I'm missing something, as it seems quite simple to me.

It's 5-years to apply for settled status (not citizenship), however, the default position is that everybody from the EU in the UK and vice versa is that these people have no legal right to be here/us there until such time as they apply for indefinite leave to remain.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, what you are putting forward is not a pure "No Deal" scenario, as you want some form of deals between the EU countries on trade and immigration, or for our government to change the rules unilaterally. As of those things are desirable/likely, however, that is not a no deal.

Edited by Mr Smith
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, i.k.s said:

Eh, you made the claim that the womans blog which listed companies that had moved from the uk with a sub off the eu was bollocks...I'm telling you it happened. i.e, not bollocks.

 

There are websites all over the place telling you that's bollocks.  The trouble is if you're biased you'll believe what you want to believe.  

Did Ford leave because the EU paid them to leave?  No.

Was Ford's destination influenced by an EU grant/loan.  Definitely.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, bestwood_red! said:

If there’s a general election and it doesn’t go the way I want then I demand a second vote because some of the winners promises are bound to not come to fruition and then I’ll look down my nose at those who voted for the winners and act all superior. 

 

A fella I work with is a Libertarian, full on right wing economically.  Apparently according to those things that tell you where you are politically I'm a left wing libertarian.  We agree on most things considering we're supposed to be at opposite ends of the spectrum.  We decided between us that we'll never have anyone in parliament representing us.  

It gives us a good perspective, when nobody represents you, you can see the things  for the horseshit that they are.  

We voted differently in the referendum.  Both of us agree we aren't going to get what we wanted from the referendum - much like if you vote in a general election.

I'm always surprised at this stage when people vote for something and think they're actually going get what they voted for.  

I don't feel superior, I feel under represented.  I'd say more people feel that way than don't.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

 

A fella I work with is a Libertarian, full on right wing economically.  Apparently according to those things that tell you where you are politically I'm a left wing libertarian.  We agree on most things considering we're supposed to be at opposite ends of the spectrum.  We decided between us that we'll never have anyone in parliament representing us.  

It gives us a good perspective, when nobody represents you, you can see the things  for the horseshit that they are.  

We voted differently in the referendum.  Both of us agree we aren't going to get what we wanted from the referendum - much like if you vote in a general election.

I'm always surprised at this stage when people vote for something and think they're actually going get what they voted for.  

I don't feel superior, I feel under represented.  I'd say more people feel that way than don't.

Joking aside you’re right. No matter who or what you vote for you never get it. 

 

Whats surprising me is is how many remainers are pushing for Corbyn to get in who for decades has been a staunch Leaver. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, bestwood_red! said:

If there’s a general election and it doesn’t go the way I want then I demand a second vote because some of the winners promises are bound to not come to fruition and then I’ll look down my nose at those who voted for the winners and act all superior. 

 

In the general election scenario you describe above you wouldn't need to demand a second vote as you'd get another one in 5 years anyway. Brexit is irreversible - at least without going through another political process and many years of negotiations on our terms of entry - so it's vital to get it right. If people feel like they've been misled into voting Leave then given the enormity and finality of the impact I think it's only proper they get given a second referendum to vote making a more informed choice.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, i.k.s said:

I don't even know or care what the deal is. Arch Brexiteers voted to leave. Out. No deal. What part of that are you struggling with? 

Then why are lots of them not happy with the deal and slagging off May? Then the other half still hate the deal but slag off anyone who doesn’t vote for it. Anyone would think they don’t know what they want.

 

Edited by nottmred
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, nottmred said:

Then why are lots of them not happy with the deal and slagging off May? Then the other half still hate the deal but slag off anyone who doesn’t vote for it. Anyone would think they don’t know what they want.

 

A big part of the problem (and from the start) was they treated Brexit day as the destination as opposed to a process. They think they had to have it all wrapped up and they’ll never agree what that looks like. The deal is shite but it’s the one that we have to get us out. If only they’d vote for it and then work on a better long term deal.

we can see the problem with a no deal Brexit from the shitshow our MPs are currently delivering. A full three years fucking up the basic bit, suggests that getting the nation out of the hole that in the immediate aftermath is beyond them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Not that I want to defend them as Labour haven't been great in this either, but they mostly voted with every alternative on Wednesday, including the Tory proposed ideas, it was the Tories that block voted them down.  I put a link up after on how the parties voted.  In short, generally much more workable and better ideas were put on the table and the silly bastards in power vetoed them all.  

None were viable alternative plans. All have serious flaws, especially a Custom Union linked option and many wouldn't solve the Northern Ireland backstop. May's plan is the closest to a plausible solution, but the security aspect of the political and withdrawal agreement makes the deal a non-starter! What hindered the negotiations process was the E.U. insistence that the economic aspect of the talks would be separate and after the divorce bill and political declaration, both go hand in hand. The European Union know that it will not agree a free trade agreement that includes the service sector to which is vitally important to our economy. So the fall-back when negotiations fail (and it will) would mean the evoking of the backstop!

A Customs Union (Norway EFTA, E.E.C. Mk2) deal means freedom of movement to which many Brexiteers voted against. Before the E.C. / E.U. expanded in 2001 Freedom of Movement worked surprisingly well, attracting skilled, highly motivated workers. It was after 2004 / 2007 when the Eastern European Countries finally ceded into the EU that flaws of the F.O.M. and a two-tier system materialised. Whilst Businesses (including C.B.I.) and Unions desire and champion for F.O.M. as it provides young, highly flexible, cheap, motivated, low-skilled workers the problem is that it keeps wages down, allows exploitation of workers rights and causes a serious strain on the local services - Education, Housing, NHS . Yes there are positive aspects of F.O.M. including attracting high skilled workers but a Visa system, Blue / Green Card and permanence residency could easily replicate the process without many of the negative problems. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, nemesiz said:

None were viable alternative plans. All have serious flaws, especially a Custom Union linked option and many wouldn't solve the Northern Ireland backstop. May's plan is the closest to a plausible solution, but the security aspect of the political and withdrawal agreement makes the deal a non-starter! What hindered the negotiations process was the E.U. insistence that the economic aspect of the talks would be separate and after the divorce bill and political declaration, both go hand in hand. The European Union know that it will not agree a free trade agreement that includes the service sector to which is vitally important to our economy. So the fall-back when negotiations fail (and it will) would mean the evoking of the backstop!

A Customs Union (Norway EFTA, E.E.C. Mk2) deal means freedom of movement to which many Brexiteers voted against. Before the E.C. / E.U. expanded in 2001 Freedom of Movement worked surprisingly well, attracting skilled, highly motivated workers. It was after 2004 / 2007 when the Eastern European Countries finally ceded into the EU that flaws of the F.O.M. and a two-tier system materialised. Whilst Businesses (including C.B.I.) and Unions desire and champion for F.O.M. as it provides young, highly flexible, cheap, motivated, low-skilled workers the problem is that it keeps wages down, allows exploitation of workers rights and causes a serious strain on the local services - Education, Housing, NHS . Yes there are positive aspects of F.O.M. including attracting high skilled workers but a Visa system, Blue / Green Card and permanence residency could easily replicate the process without many of the negative problems. 

 

The only sticking point is the Backstop.  Anything that would have sorted the border there was the answer, at least for now.  Anything else in the withdrawal agreement could have been negotiated, that was the only non-negotiable thing.

It would have made sense to talk about this in the run up to the referendum but as we know, we were just force fed bullshit instead of actual things that we would have to deal with.  I'll tell you what, I'll bet anything that twats like Farage didn't even imagine that would be an issue.  Basically because he's an ill informed moron.

I couldn't give a fuck either way to be honest, I'm fed up of hearing about it but this is one of several things that weren't talked about before and now it's bit us on the arse mostly because the whole process has been conducted with dishonesty, on both sides. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 12:16 PM, Mr Smith said:

am not suggesting that those countries would not want to trade with us (not that they can arrange their own deals as members of the EU), however, in order to trade with those states we need some form of trade deal. I agree entirely with the last point and there is an entire world out there to trade with, but since only 9 of the 40 trade deals we have as an EU member have been replicated we will be at a disadvantage. The immediate effect of leaving the EU with no deal is that we have no deals and means that we are a third-country and subject to trade tariffs.

The fall back is W.T.O. rules and regulations to which U.K. is a member and deals with the majority of countries outside the E.U. This equates to roughly 2-3% for the majority of goods, although far higher for vehicles (6%), meat (5%), cereal (9%), clothing (11%) and vegetables (9%). Our biggest disadvantage was the recent Japanese deal which the UK attempted to replicate and failed miserably (and caused offence), although there is plans to join either the RCEP / TPP / ACEAN agreement(s) that would eclipse this deal! This would mean free trade with the majority of Far Eastern countries and include  (Japan), Australia, India and Singapore. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, nemesiz said:

The fall back is W.T.O. rules and regulations to which U.K. is a member and deals with the majority of countries outside the E.U. This equates to roughly 2-3% for the majority of goods, although far higher for vehicles (6%), meat (5%), cereal (9%), clothing (11%) and vegetables (9%). Our biggest disadvantage was the recent Japanese deal which the UK attempted to replicate and failed miserably (and caused offence), although there is plans to join either the RCEP / TPP / ACEAN agreement(s) that would eclipse this deal! This would mean free trade with the majority of Far Eastern countries and include  (Japan), Australia, India and Singapore. 

Not sure how we are disagreeing. If there is a no deal, we will have to pay tariffs that we weren't paying before. This will have some economic impact on the UK - although it is speculation as to what extent this will harm the economy.

There was a way to do Brexit well, however, our government has failed dismally and haven't even come close. The simple fact is they have not replicated the trade deals we have with other third countries and once we leave there is scope to enter other international trading blocs, however, we will not have these in place should there be a no deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
  • Live championship table

  • Championship Live Scores

    Fctables
×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.