Jump to content
the_saurus

The politics thread

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Daz555 said:

Apart from Cameron being a c*nt and starting this whole shambles to save his own skin, the mess here has been caused entirely by how the referendum was run.

It was utter lunacy to take the most complex decision this nation has ever taken and reduce it down to some stupid 12 word question in the referendum. What should have happened is for Parliament to first AGREE on a potential exit plan for the EU and then put that exit plan alongside remain into a referendum.

The referendum we had was little better than "hey guys shall we make everything utterly amazing, or not." An empty useless question and because the question was so useless rather than genuine debate we got horseshit promises and outright lies.

It wasn't a 12 word question.  The government bombarded us with pro eu leaflets asking us to make a call based on the pro European bias they fed us. ..and still lost lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/25/2019 at 3:29 AM, Lvivska said:

I told you it would be a fuck up before you cast your vote, Everyone had a go at me ,  Its a fuck up .  so lets have some apologies . starting with IKS, Fat boy , Colin . That moaning cunt Dane. . That bone idle fucker from Bestwood. 

Hold on. How come Colin and IKS don't get abuse, yet the rest of us are fat boy, moaning cunt, and idle fucker? 

Anyway, how are you Andy? Must be a year since I've seen you. Fuck me, I'll bet you're looking old now. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, i.k.s said:

It wasn't a 12 word question.  The government bombarded us with pro eu leaflets asking us to make a call based on the pro European bias they fed us. ..and still lost lol

It was an over simplified question because there was no clue about what leave actually meant.

The illustration of this is that May's deal satisfies the referendum as we will have left the EU. So if that deal technically satisfies the terms, then it shows us what a shit show of a question it was.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Daz555 said:

It was an over simplified question because there was no clue about what leave actually meant.

It meant exactly how it was worded.  It certainly didn't mean fuck about for 2.5 years and not leave. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, tramaziboy said:

It meant exactly how it was worded.

 

Which is the point - the wording of the question was an over simplified approach at resolving a complex issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, i.k.s said:

It wasn't a 12 word question.  The government bombarded us with pro eu leaflets asking us to make a call based on the pro European bias they fed us. ..and still lost lol

 

Please tell me how many of the pledges in the Leave campaign have been kept?

The promise over the EU subscription fees going back to the NHS was conceded to be undeliverable the morning after the referendum. Sure, it's not the first campaign promise to be broken and won't be the last, but a major campaign promise being rescinded less than 24 hours after the ballot speaks volumes.

Please tell me how many of the trade deals we were promised have been delivered? If you recall these were going to be the easiest trade deals in history? If you recall, the EU needed us more than we needed them? If you recall we were negotiating from a position of strength? Yes?

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, H-Block said:

 

Which is the point - the wording of the question was an over simplified approach at resolving a complex issue.

 

To be fair, a quick look online will tell you half of the people in the country don't know how to use their, there and they're properly so there isn't much hope of them getting their heads around anything complex no matter how you word it.  

Which is probably why having a referendum is a waste of time and why our electoral system is shit and our politicians are piss takers.  If we weren't a nation of thickies we'd have enough about us to tackle our problems instead of half of us running up the street every time they throw us a bone of distraction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, H-Block said:

Please tell me how many of the trade deals we were promised have been delivered? If you recall these were going to be the easiest trade deals in history? If you recall, the EU needed us more than we needed them?

None, because we're still in the cuntin' eu.  Not only that, our remainer politicians dont want us to leave.

How is it that after GB voted to leave, the eu did a trade deal eith Japan that didn't include customs unions, or the other bollocks we get tied to. They also dont have to pay quarter a billion quid a week.  If they dont want to do a similar agreement with us then tell them to fuck off.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, tramaziboy said:

None, because we're still in the cuntin' eu.  Not only that, our remainer politicians dont want us to leave.

How is it that after GB voted to leave, the eu did a trade deal eith Japan that didn't include customs unions, or the other bollocks we get tied to. They also dont have to pay quarter a billion quid a week.  If they dont want to do a similar agreement with us then tell them to fuck off.   

 

That deal was in the making for 20 years and really took about 10 once they really go into it - and it was scheduled to go live in 2019 regardless of Brexit. UK were absolutely key in the negotiations due to our close ties via the motor and tech industries. You don't just spin up a trade deal on the back of a fag packet. Leaving the customs union takes us out of the Japan deal as well (which now forms the planet's largest and most powerful trade bloc). Also if we leave the customs union we cannot get a better deal than the EU in terms of trade with Japan. And not just because we will be minnows in comparison to the EU, but because it is written into the trade deal itself.

Leaving the customs union takes us out of trade deals with roughly half the nations on planet Earth. Just how big do you think our Civil Service is? Or how competent for that matter to deliver trade deals in a reasonable time frame? Answer - they are not. I suspect it would take 40 or 50 years.

And what has the EU (which is us at the moment too) done that is so bad to you?

 

Edited by Daz555
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it seems Mogg really has jumped ship to Mays terrible deal - and you wonder if a lot more will follow. The worst possible deal for brexiters I think and very little to savour for remainers either.

Jesus what a car crash.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Daz555 said:

That deal was in the making for 20 years and really took about 10 once they really go into it - and it was scheduled to go live in 2019 regardless of Brexit.

That whole post is utter bollocks.  I had a quick look and negotiations started in 2013 and stalled because of Trumps election win, who, btw, has already said he is willing to do a trade deal with us...but hey, it takes 20yrs planning according to you!

What don't I like about the eu? Off the top of my head...

  1. They're not very democratic.  Ireland, GB, Greece, France all been made to either re-vote until they get the outcome the eu wants, or the votes are just ignored completely.
  2. We have to pay BILLIONS of £££'s every year to be in the eu.
  3. Open borders and the influx of circa 500,000 immigrants NET every year.
  4. Unelected politicians and bureaucrats with their snouts in the trough.  Neil and Gladys Kinnock FFS.
  5. The Lisbon Treaty.
  6. The fraudulent Target2 payment system.

But the main point up there is the total lack of democracy.  Are you really that blinkered that you cannot see what is happening here?  If this vote had been 52/48 Remain then we would not hear anything more about it.  Its a huge farce.

The eu is a hypocritical, unethical shambles. Greece is a clustering fucking mess, as is Italy, Spain, Portugal...look at France right now...19 weeks of constant rioting now is it?  If that was Ukraine/Syria then we wouldn't hear the end of it on the news and the eu would be wanting to drop weapons in to help the rioters.  You need to wake up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, tramaziboy said:

  "If this vote had been 52/48 Remain then we would not hear anything more about it.  Its a huge farce.  "

"The eu is a hypocritical, unethical shambles. Greece is a clustering fucking mess, as is Italy, Spain, Portugal...look at France right now...19 weeks of constant rioting now is it?  If that was Ukraine/Syria then we wouldn't hear the end of it on the news and the eu would be wanting to drop weapons in to help the rioters.  You need to wake up."

Farage stated on the night of the referendum that if remain had won, Vote Leave would be campaigning immediately for another referendum.

We are the laughing stock right now. Half the planet already hates Britain and the British and now the other half is laughing at us in pity.

Edited by Daz555

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

The problem with the leave result is that no-one agrees what that means. Now a few people with their heads in the sand will just spout "leave means leave" and will be banging on about no-deal being the default. However, let's not pretend that we can expect Parliament to allow that. It would be a utter catastrophe for the UK and its people - particularly the most vulnerable. The rich will weather the storm, those less well off will not.

I have now seen a good portion my own company's no-deal plans as they have been released from non-disclosure at my level as I need to be involved from an IT infrastructure point of view. It is utterly depressing. The job losses and money/business being moved to the EU is eye watering. The £39bn we will save by not paying the EU is small change, put it that way.

 

Parliament are progressively a majority of Pro-European Union supporters that only see the positive aspect of being part of the Economic and Political Bloc. Not many understand the serious flaws or negative impact since the expansion from 11 Members when it was the E.E.C. to the current 27 E.C. Fundamentally the expansion to include the ex-Soviet Bloc members was a political, not an economic decision. When the majority of regulations and rules were created  (including the Freedom of movement) for all E.E.C. countries the core members had a similar economic framework, so whilst there were difference the basic principles of trading between each partner, it bought us closer together. Unfortunately once the E.E.C. changed the premise of the community to a political one with closer ideology, legislation and closer centralised controls including the introduction of the EURO and Freedom of Movement (Schengen Area Plan 1995) this was the start of a two-tier Europe.

Worryingly the Banking Crisis in 2008 only quickened the economic division. The Banking Crisis, but also the Internet evolution has meant countries such as Portugal, Ireland, Italy, GREECE, and lesser extent Spain to be financially insolvent. Without financial bail-outs, those countries would have left the E.U. Unfortunately this has left countries such as Greece facing stiff economic sanctions and controls and causing insurmountable suffering. Whilst countries such as Germany can exploit a weaker Euro for their exports and make imports more expensive!

What's this got to do with the UK? Well the Freedom of Movement when originally devised was an excellent idea but with the two-tier system has allowed cheap labour from the ex-Soviet Bloc to flood the market. For Businesses it's a fantastic boon with young, fit, enthusiastic workers that will work for far lower wages than the indigenous population. Unfortunately this, and the minimum wage has kept wages artificially low, and help create a decline in welfare and working standards, but also discouraged companies from training local unemployed! Of course the Economists would argue that F.O.M.  has bought in £68 billion (old figures) to the economy, but they fail to include the costs and impact on education, welfare, housing, health service and other infrastructure.

The other serious economic impact from the expansion of the EU and F.O.M. is the loss of hundred of thousands of jobs as large Corporations transfer their manufacturing and factories to cheaper infrastructure, and lower wages such as Poland, Slovakia and Estonia. Whilst this heavily impact on traditional towns dependent on those companies, the double whammy occurs when the EU provides loans and grants for the re-location!

This is just the tip of the Iceberg when it comes to argument against staying in the E.U. Without going into detail closer political ties and the final ratification of the Lisbon Treaty 2019, the E.U. led by Franco-German powerhouse want to create a Federalist Europe. This would be unpalatable to the vast majority of British Citizens, as centralising of all economic, political and legislative decision would be made in Brussel/ Strasbourg. If this country hadn't voted to leave, plans that include an EU Army, abolition of Daylight Saving Time, reduction in C.A.P. payments to the British Farmers, gradual loss of VETO powers would be closer to fruition.             

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, nemesiz said:

Parliament are progressively a majority of Pro-European Union supporters that only see the positive aspect of being part of the Economic and Political Bloc. Not many understand the serious flaws or negative impact since the expansion from 11 Members when it was the E.E.C. to the current 27 E.C. Fundamentally the expansion to include the ex-Soviet Bloc members was a political, not an economic decision. When the majority of regulations and rules were created  (including the Freedom of movement) for all E.E.C. countries the core members had a similar economic framework, so whilst there were difference the basic principles of trading between each partner, it bought us closer together. Unfortunately once the E.E.C. changed the premise of the community to a political one with closer ideology, legislation and closer centralised controls including the introduction of the EURO and Freedom of Movement (Schengen Area Plan 1995) this was the start of a two-tier Europe.

Worryingly the Banking Crisis in 2008 only quickened the economic division. The Banking Crisis, but also the Internet evolution has meant countries such as Portugal, Ireland, Italy, GREECE, and lesser extent Spain to be financially insolvent. Without financial bail-outs, those countries would have left the E.U. Unfortunately this has left countries such as Greece facing stiff economic sanctions and controls and causing insurmountable suffering. Whilst countries such as Germany can exploit a weaker Euro for their exports and make imports more expensive!

What's this got to do with the UK? Well the Freedom of Movement when originally devised was an excellent idea but with the two-tier system has allowed cheap labour from the ex-Soviet Bloc to flood the market. For Businesses it's a fantastic boon with young, fit, enthusiastic workers that will work for far lower wages than the indigenous population. Unfortunately this, and the minimum wage has kept wages artificially low, and help create a decline in welfare and working standards, but also discouraged companies from training local unemployed! Of course the Economists would argue that F.O.M.  has bought in £68 billion (old figures) to the economy, but they fail to include the costs and impact on education, welfare, housing, health service and other infrastructure.

The other serious economic impact from the expansion of the EU and F.O.M. is the loss of hundred of thousands of jobs as large Corporations transfer their manufacturing and factories to cheaper infrastructure, and lower wages such as Poland, Slovakia and Estonia. Whilst this heavily impact on traditional towns dependent on those companies, the double whammy occurs when the EU provides loans and grants for the re-location!

This is just the tip of the Iceberg when it comes to argument against staying in the E.U. Without going into detail closer political ties and the final ratification of the Lisbon Treaty 2019, the E.U. led by Franco-German powerhouse want to create a Federalist Europe. This would be unpalatable to the vast majority of British Citizens, as centralising of all economic, political and legislative decision would be made in Brussel/ Strasbourg. If this country hadn't voted to leave, plans that include an EU Army, abolition of Daylight Saving Time, reduction in C.A.P. payments to the British Farmers, gradual loss of VETO powers would be closer to fruition.             

 

Half of the problems you talk about are OUR government pocketing the cash from immigrants and not investing that money into the infrastructure.  

And to be honest, who gives a fuck about daylight saving time or handouts to farmers or anything that you 'predict' will happen?

Most of that wordy bollocks is made up.  Like blaming the EU for greedy bastards sending their manufacturing overseas.  Get out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Most of that wordy bollocks is made up.  Like blaming the EU for greedy bastards sending their manufacturing overseas.  Get out!

This link explains a number of multi-national companies that have used EU funding to re-locate from Britain.  

https://janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html

Edited by nemesiz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, nemesiz said:

This link explains a number of multi-national companies that have used EU funding to re-locate from Britain.  

https://janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html

 

It's a blog, please provide proper evidence that they have relocated because of the EU.  

For example, were the grants to prevent them going to say China?

Did Dyson relocate cause of the EU too?

I'm going to go as far as to say the woman is a moron.  Evidence, at the end she talks about having to get out of the EU so we can hold our own politicians to account.  Get out!  It's twats like her that enable our idiots by pointing the finger elsewhere.

Edited by Charlie Cheswick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Daz555 said:

It was an over simplified question because there was no clue about what leave actually meant.

Eh? I know full well what 'leave' meant...and no. It wasn't cos I don't like coloured people. Or Polish, or any other fucker before you start.

This is the big problem you remainers have. You actually believe people voted to leave without knowing what we were voting for. I know why I voted leave, for many logical & SENSIBLE reasons & tbh I couldn't care less what the short term outcome is. I truly believe that in the long term we'll be better off well & truly out...with no deal. My decision was easy. National sovereignty was an issue, especially given the way the EUis heading. The Eu consists of unelected officials who lack democratic accountability. And given how far we’ve come since joining the EEC in 1973, it's scary as fuck to know how much more politically integrated the EU will be in 10 or 15 years’ time. Our politicians may still make awful decisions & monumental fuck ups but at least they are accountable to us!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

 

It's a blog, please provide proper evidence that they have relocated because of the EU.  

'Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.' Yep, down the road from me, that happened. Transits are no longer made in Southampton because the Eu gave money to Fords in order to spread the love around europe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, H-Block said:

 

Please tell me how many of the pledges in the Leave campaign have been kept?

The promise over the EU subscription fees going back to the NHS was conceded to be undeliverable the morning after the referendum. Sure, it's not the first campaign promise to be broken and won't be the last, but a major campaign promise being rescinded less than 24 hours after the ballot speaks volumes.

Please tell me how many of the trade deals we were promised have been delivered? If you recall these were going to be the easiest trade deals in history? If you recall, the EU needed us more than we needed them? If you recall we were negotiating from a position of strength? Yes?

 

Give it a chance, we haven't left yet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, i.k.s said:

'Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.' Yep, down the road from me, that happened. Transits are no longer made in Southampton because the Eu gave money to Fords in order to spread the love around europe.

Getting an EU grant doesn't mean they'd still be in Southampton.  It means they weren't moved to China like everything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

It's a blog, please provide proper evidence that they have relocated because of the EU.  

As you've never heard of 'Google" . When I've got time i'll link the other news articles that are described on the blog.

BBC website.

Twinings tea

A company has defended taking an EU grant to help fund the opening of a tea packing factory in Poland, as hundreds of jobs are lost at its UK sites.

The Twinings plant on North Tyneside, which employs 260 workers, is to close, and 100 posts in Andover, Hampshire, are also set to go.

Owner AB Foods is planning to open a £27m site in Poland.

Critics have said the £12m grant should be used to open new investments, rather than relocate existing facilities.

The European Commission has begun an investigation into whether this use of the funding breached EU rules.

AB Foods Chief Executive George Weston said that the decision to open the Poland site was made before the application for the grant.

"The days when it made sense to import tea to the UK to pack it there and send it to Australia are behind us and we have to have factories in the right places," he said.

"We don't apologise for renewing our supply chain, it's a global business.

"We are expanding our factory in China and building a new one in Poland, which will reduce tea miles and produce a business better equipped to supply the market.

"The blending knowledge and the brand will remain in Andover."

------------------------

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9063528.Firm_loses___10_5m_EU_grant_after_Hampshire_job_losses/

 

A GREEN MEP has welcomed a decision not to give Hampshire-based tea firm Twinings a £10.5m EU grant pledged to it after it announced plans to relocate from the UK to Poland, resulting in the loss of almost 400 jobs.

AB Foods, which owns the company, plans to open the new £27m (€43m) site in Poland later this year and close a plant employing 260 workers in North Shields.

-------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

Getting an EU grant doesn't mean they'd still be in Southampton.  It means they weren't moved to China like everything else.

 why do we have to go through this with you trying to wriggle out of every statement you ever make when it is wrong... the facts are that the EU gave Ford's a grant to build a factory in Turkey and then gave a further loan to Ford's to move production there!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, nemesiz said:

As you've never heard of 'Google" . When I've got time i'll link the other news articles that are described on the blog.

BBC website.

Twinings tea

A company has defended taking an EU grant to help fund the opening of a tea packing factory in Poland, as hundreds of jobs are lost at its UK sites.

The Twinings plant on North Tyneside, which employs 260 workers, is to close, and 100 posts in Andover, Hampshire, are also set to go.

Owner AB Foods is planning to open a £27m site in Poland.

Critics have said the £12m grant should be used to open new investments, rather than relocate existing facilities.

The European Commission has begun an investigation into whether this use of the funding breached EU rules.

AB Foods Chief Executive George Weston said that the decision to open the Poland site was made before the application for the grant.

"The days when it made sense to import tea to the UK to pack it there and send it to Australia are behind us and we have to have factories in the right places," he said.

"We don't apologise for renewing our supply chain, it's a global business.

"We are expanding our factory in China and building a new one in Poland, which will reduce tea miles and produce a business better equipped to supply the market.

"The blending knowledge and the brand will remain in Andover."

------------------------

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9063528.Firm_loses___10_5m_EU_grant_after_Hampshire_job_losses/

 

A GREEN MEP has welcomed a decision not to give Hampshire-based tea firm Twinings a £10.5m EU grant pledged to it after it announced plans to relocate from the UK to Poland, resulting in the loss of almost 400 jobs.

AB Foods, which owns the company, plans to open the new £27m (€43m) site in Poland later this year and close a plant employing 260 workers in North Shields.

-------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Why should I Google because you haven't got your facts straight.

As stated in the above article that you linked, the company decided to leave here before they applied for a grant.  Meaning that the grant had nothing to do with them leaving.  This is how it is, companies make more money by cutting labour costs so they move overseas.  They've been doing it for years.  If it wasn't for an EU grant they just go further overseas where the labour is even cheaper.  Once we're out of the EU they'll still do it.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, i.k.s said:

 why do we have to go through this with you trying to wriggle out of every statement you ever make when it is wrong... the facts are that the EU gave Ford's a grant to build a factory in Turkey and then gave a further loan to Ford's to move production there!

 

Were Ford going to stay in Southampton without the grant?  Of course not, they're greedy bastards looking to make a few quid more.  You'd surely like that?

Now stop making me do your thinking for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Charlie Cheswick said:

 

Were Ford going to stay in Southampton without an eu grant,  of course not. 

Prove it. Seeing as your quick to dismiss a link laden blog as bollocks...let's see your link to Ford's stopping in Southampton unless they got an eu grant.

Edited by i.k.s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
  • Live championship table

  • Championship Live Scores

    Fctables
×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.